'I Really Want Game Pass to Work' — Free From Microsoft Ownership, Double Fine Boss Tim Schafer Is Indie Once Again

It's only been a few months since developer Double Fine's split from Microsoft, but the team behind Psychonauts 2, Kiln, and Keeper is looking ahead. With another successful Kickstarter campaign under its belt, the newly independent studio's second (or should that be third?) life as an indie is off to an optimistic start. With the current Kickstarter focusing on the developer's latest Amenesia Fortnight — a developer-run game jam where new micro games are produced — it's allowing the developers to build up some much-needed runway as they plan for their next major project.

At PAX West 2026, we spoke with Double Fine studio head and president, Tim Schafer, about the developer's current path forward. Along with talking about his return to independence following the biggest restructure in Xbox history, Schafer reflected on Double Fine's years under Microsoft's banner, and explained how Game Pass can still potentially work as a subscription service. He also reaffirmed his commitment to making Brutal Legend 2 (provided someone can front the money for it).

IGN: It's been seven years since the Microsoft acquisition, and the game industry has gone through so much change. What's it been like to return to being an independent developer?

Tim Schafer: It's been exhilarating. Like, it's scary because we've got to make our own way in the world, but we did that for 19 years before Microsoft, so we have a lot of great ideas and a lot of experience pitching them. A lot of people know it's a tough time out there. A lot of people, and now especially a lot of the older developers, are gone. A lot of the old avenues we used for funding are gone, but there are a lot of new ones. So we're just putting ourselves out there, meeting a lot of new people, and talking about who wants to make games with us.

IGN: I think what's been great to see with Double Fine is that it has a core audience of players that are invested in seeing the studio thrive. I remember the original Kickstarter campaign for Broken Age was a big breakthrough for Double Fine.

Schafer: Yeah, I mean that sort of thing was quite like a big financial impact, but it was also an awakening of just how tight we are with the community, like how dependent we are on them, and how much they're willing to participate. You know what I mean? Because they participate financially, but also creatively. Like, they really want to make art as well. I feel like that's something special about our fans, and it's because our number one thing is creativity. So I think it breeds a fan who also likes creativity, and I think it, hopefully, helps our games inspire not just players, but people to like learning to draw or program, or, you know, people who want to know how to make a game.

IGN: Now that you are an independent developer again, and with all this attention on you, do you feel there's a certain responsibility placed on you all to make it as an indie studio?

Schafer: I don't see it as a responsibility. I mean, I don't expect anybody to look at us and know what to do, because our situation always feels really unique to Double Fine and me. Like we're an indie game studio, but we have a lot of employees, and we have healthcare, and we have a lot of stuff like that. There's not a lot of companies our size anymore, like AA-size studios, kind of. So, I wouldn't say do everything that we do. I hope no one's following our example because I don't know if it works for anyone but us.

IGN: The Kickstarter for the Amnesia Fortnight is an interesting way to start this comeback, it's all about this big push to produce some new ideas and bring to life.

Schafer: It's kind of like a celebration of what we can do now that was harder to do before. Even being at PAX, Microsoft usually likes to have one big booth. So having little booths all over is not what they're into. They're not even here at the show. So being independent, we can come to PAX, we can talk to the fans, we can set the prices of our games. We can do tiny games like Thank You Bus Driver, which is a new project for us, and we made a whole special label for them called Double Fine Action Labs, where we can release smaller ideas, do game jams, and do the kind of things we like to do. So it's a celebration of both what we can do and what we like to do, which is high-bandwidth interaction with the fans, doing silly creative things, and just having a lot of fun.

IGN: I would be remiss not to say that a lot of people took notice of the Kickstarter mentioning that Brutal Legend 2 can be made if you secure $100 million. I understand it was meant as a joke…

Schafer: I mean, it was a joke, but also, it's not a joke. Sure, I mean, if we got $100 million, we would do it for sure. I would happily put everything aside and make Brutal Legend 2, as long as I could talk Jack Black into it. Yeah, but if we got $100 million, that's great. Yeah, I could do a demo for $100 [laughs]. But it's not a joke — I would do it if we hit that goal. We're probably not going to hit that, though. But any rich guys out there, if you ever want to see Brutal Legend 2, come help us out.

IGN: Now that you're back as an independent developer, how do you feel about those seven years working under Microsoft? Would you say that it was a valuable experience in the end?

Schafer: I learned a lot from it, and it was a really great experience overall. They invested a lot in the company, and their mission was to support Game Pass and other projects. So for a while, we were very closely aligned, and it was great. It was a great partnership, and then their goals changed, and so we parted ways because of that.

But I feel like, in the meantime, we had a great little collection of studios within Xbox Game Studios, like Compulsion, Ninja Theory, Obsidian, and inXile. We got to meet all the studio heads and talk to them, and our programmers got to talk. Their programmers are artists, and everyone was exchanging ideas and technology, and it was really a great learning experience about how other companies are run. So, because you're independent, you're a little more like an island. So, being an island that was temporarily pushed, hitched up to a bunch of other islands was very much, "Oh, that's a cool game right there, we could go play that game."

IGN: Game Pass was such a big part of the Xbox brand's push for a larger games audience. Do you feel that Game Pass still has value and potential as a service?

Schafer: I really want Game Pass to work. I like the idea of subscription models for companies like us, who, you know, lower the barrier to entry for everyone. We want to make games that are weird and creative, that you might not understand at first. I think that's the kind of stuff we like to do. Do people see the key art and go like, "What?" And if it's on a subscription, you've already kind of paid for the game. You'd be more likely to try it, so that sounds good.

But there are other ways to reach people like that, like lowering your prices, for example. You know, getting people to try your games like that. I think it could have worked. I don't understand why Netflix worked and Game Pass didn't, and I think that's something I just don't know enough about, but that's the way it is. So now we're taking another approach: making it really affordable.

IGN: It's been interesting to see the rise of these micro-games, ones that are fairly modest in concept, but offer variety and fun for groups of players. I know the term "friendslop" is used a lot, but I kind of see some of Double Fine's games, and experimental ones, being right at home with those styles of games – particularly Kiln.

Schafer: Yeah, I think the difference is multiplayer. We have built a ton of multiplayer, but the thing about those games kind of aligns with what we're doing with our Amnesia Fortnight, which is just trying stuff. A lot of those games came from game jams. I think the game Peak came from a game jam, and we just want to give everyone in the company a chance. Really, people feel safe to experiment and try creative ideas, and then to not spend $300 million on them, just spend like sticky bus drivers for six weeks, put it out there, and just see what you know.

The thing about those 'friendslop' games, people mostly focus on successes, but there's tons of them that don't work out. I think the idea is that you never know which one's going to take off, so don't bank the future of your company on any one individual idea for sure. But these games were called "friendjank" for awhile, you remember that? It's also about casual pacing, it's basically games where it's mostly about hanging out with your friends.

Xbox Games Series Tier List

Xbox Games Series Tier List

IGN: What are your thoughts on the state of the industry now? There's been a lot of reports and stories of developers struggling to stay open and some creatives having to leave the field. Do you feel optimistic that things can improve?

Schafer: It's a shitty time out there, and it's been getting worse for longer than I've ever seen it get worse. I usually try to comfort people by saying to the team, "Well, there are cycles, there are downturns, but it always turns back up again because you need people to make games, and that comes and goes." But this has been going on for at least four years, and I feel like I've never seen a cycle plunge so low.

Is it a permanent change in just the economics of it all? But people are still needed to make games. It's not like AI has replaced everybody, and for all the talk about it replacing Google, it's not effectively replacing anybody right now. So where are all those jobs going? I still see a bunch of games getting made, and people are still needed. So I wish I were smarter and knew the answer to that. But it seems like you need people to make games, and so there should be a ton of opportunities, and they're still making a lot of money.

For creatives, you have to have fun making games because they're really hard to make. A lot of these people could make more than money in a tech company, so they're here because they love games. And if you're here because you love games, then you should love what you're doing, love making games, and have fun.

Photo by Christian Petersen/Getty Images.